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Veiko
huviline
Registreerunud 28.12.03
Asukoht: Keila-Joa
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Audi B8 RS4 avant, Hummer H2.
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postitati 06.04.11 08:24
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Enda omal läks üks katt seest lahti ja tuli midagi välja mõelda,et mitte hirmsat hinda kattide eest maksta. Panin alla sportkatid (metall sisu). Edasi
tegin Janni jutu järgi. Otse torud ja H-pipe vahele. Tulemus auto hakkas kergemalt hingama. Aga tagapütid lõrisevad suurematel pööretel vaja vist
panna peale H-pipi resod,et V8 hääl ilusti kõlaks. Paar pilti ka.
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Jann
huviline
Registreerunud 07.08.05
Asukoht: Viljandi
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: C7 Allroad BIT, ABARTH, BR 175.
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postitati 06.04.11 10:53
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Esimest pilti vaadates tundub mulle, et oled jätnud peale katte X-pipe alles ja H-pipe kuhugi tahapoole reso koha peale umbes teinud? Kui nii, siis on
see küll mingi omamoodi lahendus.
Mina tegin nii, et H-pipe on ehitatud täpselt sinna, kus originaalis oli X-pipe ning sealt lähevad juba otsetorud tagapüttideni.
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OOOO, VW, Seat, Skoda DIAGNOSTIKA, OSTUABI (võimalik üle Eesti), kodeerimine, (de)aktiveerimine, aut. kastide õli, seadistused, DPF-i, õhkvedrustuse
mured jne. (Litsentsiga orig. Ross-Tech PRO V2 seade + uusim tarkvara VCDS 25.3.1 + 17a. kogemust). 2g, HN+, MHI2, MHI2Q uuendused, NAVI 2025, VIM,
SpeedCam, Carplay, Android Auto aktiv. jne. Läbitud kilomeetreid ei muuda. U2U või 55547002.
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Veiko
huviline
Registreerunud 28.12.03
Asukoht: Keila-Joa
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Audi B8 RS4 avant, Hummer H2.
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postitati 06.04.11 11:14
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| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Jann
Esimest pilti vaadates tundub mulle, et oled jätnud peale katte X-pipe alles ja H-pipe kuhugi tahapoole reso koha peale umbes teinud? Kui nii, siis on
see küll mingi omamoodi lahendus.
Mina tegin nii, et H-pipe on ehitatud täpselt sinna, kus originaalis oli X-pipe ning sealt lähevad juba otsetorud tagapüttideni. |
Teise pildi peal on x-pipe asemel juba sirged torud, esimene pilt oli jah veel koos x-pipega. Kas sul tagapütid ei kõrise suurematel pööretel?
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Jann
huviline
Registreerunud 07.08.05
Asukoht: Viljandi
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: C7 Allroad BIT, ABARTH, BR 175.
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postitati 06.04.11 11:55
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| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Veiko
| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Jann
Esimest pilti vaadates tundub mulle, et oled jätnud peale katte X-pipe alles ja H-pipe kuhugi tahapoole reso koha peale umbes teinud? Kui nii, siis on
see küll mingi omamoodi lahendus.
Mina tegin nii, et H-pipe on ehitatud täpselt sinna, kus originaalis oli X-pipe ning sealt lähevad juba otsetorud tagapüttideni. |
Teise pildi peal on x-pipe asemel juba sirged torud, esimene pilt oli jah veel koos x-pipega. Kas sul tagapütid ei kõrise suurematel pööretel?
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Ei kõrise. Sa oled minu meelest H-pipe ehitanud väga vale koha peale, see peab olema väga õige koha peal (kus tekivad gaaside pöörised vms.). Ja õige
koht on seal, kus originaalis oli X-pipe.
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OOOO, VW, Seat, Skoda DIAGNOSTIKA, OSTUABI (võimalik üle Eesti), kodeerimine, (de)aktiveerimine, aut. kastide õli, seadistused, DPF-i, õhkvedrustuse
mured jne. (Litsentsiga orig. Ross-Tech PRO V2 seade + uusim tarkvara VCDS 25.3.1 + 17a. kogemust). 2g, HN+, MHI2, MHI2Q uuendused, NAVI 2025, VIM,
SpeedCam, Carplay, Android Auto aktiv. jne. Läbitud kilomeetreid ei muuda. U2U või 55547002.
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Veiko
huviline
Registreerunud 28.12.03
Asukoht: Keila-Joa
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Audi B8 RS4 avant, Hummer H2.
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postitati 06.04.11 12:09
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| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Jann
| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Veiko
| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Jann
Esimest pilti vaadates tundub mulle, et oled jätnud peale katte X-pipe alles ja H-pipe kuhugi tahapoole reso koha peale umbes teinud? Kui nii, siis on
see küll mingi omamoodi lahendus.
Mina tegin nii, et H-pipe on ehitatud täpselt sinna, kus originaalis oli X-pipe ning sealt lähevad juba otsetorud tagapüttideni. |
Teise pildi peal on x-pipe asemel juba sirged torud, esimene pilt oli jah veel koos x-pipega. Kas sul tagapütid ei kõrise suurematel pööretel?
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Ei kõrise. Sa oled minu meelest H-pipe ehitanud väga vale koha peale, see peab olema väga õige koha peal (kus tekivad gaaside pöörised vms.). Ja õige
koht on seal, kus originaalis oli X-pipe. |
'
Ok! aga kui ma nüüd selle sinna kahe toru vahele panen kus X-pipe oli kas see vahe mis pildil on väikseks ei jää?
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Jann
huviline
Registreerunud 07.08.05
Asukoht: Viljandi
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: C7 Allroad BIT, ABARTH, BR 175.
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postitati 06.04.11 13:40
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Ei jää, mul torud üksteisest suht samal kaugusel.
Kesosa peaks u. nii jääma ja H-pipe peab jääma TÄPSELT sinna, kus oli X.
Umbes nii on mul keskosa tehtud.
Pilt
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OOOO, VW, Seat, Skoda DIAGNOSTIKA, OSTUABI (võimalik üle Eesti), kodeerimine, (de)aktiveerimine, aut. kastide õli, seadistused, DPF-i, õhkvedrustuse
mured jne. (Litsentsiga orig. Ross-Tech PRO V2 seade + uusim tarkvara VCDS 25.3.1 + 17a. kogemust). 2g, HN+, MHI2, MHI2Q uuendused, NAVI 2025, VIM,
SpeedCam, Carplay, Android Auto aktiv. jne. Läbitud kilomeetreid ei muuda. U2U või 55547002.
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Veiko
huviline
Registreerunud 28.12.03
Asukoht: Keila-Joa
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Audi B8 RS4 avant, Hummer H2.
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postitati 06.04.11 14:10
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| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: Jann
Ei jää, mul torud üksteisest suht samal kaugusel.
Kesosa peaks u. nii jääma ja H-pipe peab jääma TÄPSELT sinna, kus oli X.
Umbes nii on mul keskosa tehtud.
Pilt |
Ok! mis s____ti see uuesti
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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postitati 10.05.11 21:04
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Do you really need an exhaust system on your car? That’s a good question. If you have neighbors, drive it on public streets anywhere there
are cops, or race it on virtually any NHRA track in the country, the answer is probably yes. Will it cost you power compared to open headers? Although
that answer is also frequently yes, it can be no with the right system.
We’ve been running open headers on our ’86 Mustang project car since day one because it was the easiest thing to do and it seemed
cool. It was also brutally loud, but it did pass muster at our local track because Los Angeles County Raceway doesn’t enforce a 95-decibel
rule or require mufflers like many “street-legal” drag programs do. However, we always wondered if the open headers were
costing us a little low-end torque due to a lack of backpressure. To find the answer, we took the car to Magnaflow Performance
Exhaust’s research and development center. After discussing our combination and the way the car is used (100 percent at the track), Magnaflow
built a system based on its universal X-pipe crossover and a pair of its stainless steel street series mufflers.
For any performance exhaust system, some type of crossover connecting the two sides of a dual exhaust system is important because it acts to
balance the two banks of the engine. The common H-style crossover is good at balancing sound pulses between the two halves, but does little to promote
scavenging because the exhaust gases tend to follow the path of least resistance, which is straight through each pipe rather than taking the 90-degree
turn through the H-pipe into the other half of the system. In an X-pipe system, however, where the two sides of the system intersect, the gasses have
no choice but to intermingle as they pass through the junction. This promotes improved scavenging effects by smoothing out uneven exhaust pulses from
the engine’s firing order. It also helps quiet down the exhaust, resulting in a mellower, less raspy tone. According to Magnaflow, the faster
acceleration of the gasses through an X-pipe causes them to flow in a linear fashion parallel to the walls of the tubing rather than tumbling. This
“laminar” flowing gas is much quieter than tumbling gas, resulting in an exhaust tone up to 8 decibels quieter than a traditional
H-pipe.
We left the car at Magnaflow for about a week, and when we came back we found that after some preliminary testing, the guys had built a really trick
system consisting of 2-½-inch tubing from the header collectors into the X-pipe, 3-inch out of the X flaring into 3½-inch tubing running for about 26
inches before necking back down into a pair of 3-inch mufflers with turn-downs. The theory behind this design is that it will keep the velocity of the
exhaust gases moving quickly through the headers into the X-pipe to maximize the scavenging effect, while the larger-diameter tubing ahead of the
mufflers prevents the gasses from stacking up as they pass through the mufflers to avoid excessive backpressure in the system.
Sounds good, but would it work? To find out, we tested three exhaust-system configurations on Magnaflow’s in-house Dynojet. For a baseline,
we ran the car with open headers and saw 333 hp at 6,300 rpm and 304 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 at the rear wheels. Next, we ran a 2-½-inch
bolt-together system consisting of a BBK short off-road H-pipe designed to fit the company’s full-length headers connected to a set of
race-type 2-½-inch welded mufflers with turndowns. Our Mustang’s carbureted 302 didn’t like this combo, as power fell to 323 hp at
6,300 rpm and 295 lb-ft of torque at 5,200. The increased backpressure also richened up the air/fuel mixture by about two carburetor jet sizes.
Finally, we swapped on the stepped X-pipe setup and were impressed to see power levels equal to the open headers: 335 hp at 6,300 hp and 302 lb-ft at
5,200. That’s a gain of 12 rear-wheel horsepower, although it turns out we weren’t really giving anything up or gaining anything
extra from the open headers. So the car’s happy, and our ears are even happier!
H-Pipe, X-Pipe, 1, 2, 3...
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torque addict / in the real world four wheel drive means safety and traction
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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postitati 10.05.11 21:22
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The firing order of all production V8s, regardless of make, has one cylinder in each bank that will fire within 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation
of another cylinder in the same bank. This occurs twice during completion of the entire firing order. These two cylinders will be exhausting almost
simultaneously into the same exhaust manifold system.
Full-length four-tube headers help separate these pulses until the collector is reached. If this is a full race car running "open exhaust", you will
notice the collector dumps into a short open pipe at least 2.5 times the size of the header pipes, or the header pipes dump direct without a
collector. This is done to avoid the conflict of pressure caused by the timing of the 2 counter firing cylinders, which will create back pressure and
degrade torque, horsepower and general performance, especially at higher RPM.
On a full exhaust system, after the header tubes dump into the collectors, the two close firing cylinders are fighting each other for space in the
collector and exhaust pipe. The result is reflected pressure waves traveling back up the exhaust system, backpressure, lost power and poor economy.
At the same time two cylinders exhaust in one bank, there is no activity in the opposite bank. The traditional H-pipe equalizer allows some of the
excess pressure to bleed over to the 'quiet side' of the exhaust system, resulting in some low and mid-range torque improvements. At high RPMs,
however, in traditional exhaust systems, the gases cannot bleed across the H-pipe fast enough to help power significantly. Performance systems with
the H pipe design, attempt to over come this by using a shorter cross over pipe which is also slightly larger in diameter as the main exhaust, then
would be used in a standard exhaust.
To overcome the power loss of "over loading" the H pipe design, Exhaust manufacturers came up with the X pipe design, which features a
tangentially Siamese crossover junction to synchronize exhaust pulses. The X-pipe concept is to split the flow in the crossover junction, so the
pressures on both banks will be equal and pulse-free after the crossover, regardless of the rpm. Volumetric efficiency and power are therefore
improved at all engine speeds. The negative aspect to the X pipe design is, because of the crisscrossing of the flow stream, harmonic pulsations will
develop on some systems at certain RPMs, which will be perceived as a buzzing or humming sound.
A newer concept is a "Channel Pipe", where as two pipes are welded together in parallel with a baffle in between them which allows for mismatched
pressures and pulses to cross to the idle side while allowing full, uninterrupted or redirected flow of the exhaust stream through the system.
Also... There is yet another option.... The MAC Prochamber.
It looks like a box, or a muffler where the 2 header leads enter one end and then exit the other in the location of the H or X pipe.
It is essentially a combination of all three basic designs I discussed, incorporating the crossover flow of an X pipe – the open buffer of an H pipe
and the passive pulse control of a ported baffle channel pipe. MAC is the ONLY maker to have this design.
Basically it combines the exhaust into a single box, where the 2 inlets extend into the box a few inches to prevent reversion and open dumping exhaust
into the box. The outlets are flush with the back of the box and there is a baffle between the sides with ported slots directing the flow of the
inlets to cross to the other side. The Box holds backpressure at a steady rate, which eliminates scavenging.
There are many who believe the Prochamber will give increased performance values. Everyone using them will tell you they make a deeper yet quieter
tone to the exhaust note.
================================================== =============================
Some of you ask about a Cross Over on a V6.
In the case of the V6, with their “Even Firing Sequence… Having a crossover or not, is very dependent on the size of the exhaust and distance from the
engine of the pipes placement. A cross over is not required if the exhaust is “tuned” to the engine. Tuned systems are nearly always without a
crossover pipe because the length and diameter of the exhaust is specifically designed to work with your engine at a specified RPM Range to avoid
reversion and scavenging.
On a V6 there is no need for a crossover due to the even firing engine. However, it has been proven that in some instances, a crossover pipe will
decrease backpressure and allow for a higher flow. If the crossover pipe is too close to the engine, it allows the pulse timing of the opposing
cylinders exhaust cycles, to crash into each other – that is to say, the pressure from a right cylinder will still be present in the left pipe when
the left cylinder opens to vent. Too far a placement can create a “Pulse Vacuum”, causing diminished pressure on the venting opposing cylinder,
causing decrease in torque (Called Scavenging). .
Proper design and placement of the cross over will allow a balance of pressures across the system and therein increase torque, especially at lower
RPM.
Also, it has been shown that having a cross over pipe mellows out the raspy “ricer” sound that occurs above 3000rpm. So some people install them just
for their “sound” value.
So, the bottom line is, you probably should have a cross over pipe on a V6 exhaust, even though it is not needed. There is minor performance gain and
sound gain as well.
================================================== ===================================
cross over pipe theory
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torque addict / in the real world four wheel drive means safety and traction
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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Gert_V
huviline
Registreerunud 13.01.10
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: B6 1.8tq sline
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postitati 01.06.11 05:38
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d2le on odavamat tagapõtti ka pakkuda-vist simonracingu oma ja hind jäi vanas rahas sinna 3-4k vahele.
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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postitati 25.06.11 13:53
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Audi kõige võimsamal seeriatootmise v8-l on H-toru.
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torque addict / in the real world four wheel drive means safety and traction
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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postitati 25.06.11 15:08
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H Pipe:
An H pipe helps equalize the exhaust pressures between the two banks of tubing as the hot gases and sound waves travel down the tubing. This, in
effect, relieves the exhaust pressures as they travel through the H tubing, generally creating an increase in torque. This will also give an added
sound reduction when the sound waves combine inside the H tubing.
X Pipe:
An X pipe will actually help to scavenge exhaust pulses from one bank as the opposite exhaust pulse passes through the X, thus creating a vacuum
effect at the valve, resulting in a cleaner burn in the cylinder. This generally equals added torque and, like the H pipe, a reduction in sound as the
sound waves combine in the X pipe.
Link
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torque addict / in the real world four wheel drive means safety and traction
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Maku
klubiliige
Registreerunud 28.01.03
Asukoht: Eesti Vabariik
Kasutaja on eemal
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postitati 25.06.11 16:23
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Oskab keegi seda kommenteerida? Loetu põhjal H-toru ühtlustab silindripooli ja Y-toru lisaks n.ö forsseerib gaaside liikumist põhjustades parema
põlemisprotsessi. Kuidas siis loogiliselt mõeldes Milltek'i mehed leidsid, et X-toru RS4 v8-le kahjuks tuli ja otsustasid H-toru kasutada?
Audi RS4 B7 4.2 V8 Saloon Avant and Cabriolet exhaust
products (2006 and later) (H-toru)
Downpipe and 100 Cell Hi-Flow Sports Cat - Pipe Diameter: 2.50" (63.50mm)
CAT-BACK - Pipe Diameter: 2.36" (60.00mm)
AUDI
A4 RS4 QUATTRO (Sedan + Avant) 4.2i V8 (420 Hp) '06 –› (X-toru)
100% Stainless steel complete system Oversize 2 x Ø70mm -> 2 x Ø63,5mm -> 2 x Ø60mm
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torque addict / in the real world four wheel drive means safety and traction
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Silverpm
huviline
Registreerunud 06.04.08
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Need vanemad ikka.
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postitati 31.08.11 14:57
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Väike teemast mööda vaatamine.. kuid kas kellegil on õrna aimu kuhu võiks asetada audi V8-l H pipe.
All on univ. katid, ja tagapütt, keskmine pütt on ära visatud.
Üle 2000 pöörde tuleb selline paukuv heli sisse, nagu käriseks..
Alla 2000 pöörde on VÄGA muhe V8.
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Jann
huviline
Registreerunud 07.08.05
Asukoht: Viljandi
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: C7 Allroad BIT, ABARTH, BR 175.
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postitati 02.09.11 07:44
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| Tsitaat: | Algselt postitas: RKsilver
Väike teemast mööda vaatamine.. kuid kas kellegil on õrna aimu kuhu võiks asetada audi V8-l H pipe.
All on univ. katid, ja tagapütt, keskmine pütt on ära visatud.
Üle 2000 pöörde tuleb selline paukuv heli sisse, nagu käriseks..
Alla 2000 pöörde on VÄGA muhe V8. |
Tõmba näit. rasvakriidiga või millegi sarnasega peale katte torudele jooned.
Siis sõidad veidi aega "sportlikult" ja annad kuuma. Kui veab, näed kriidijoonel rohkem kõrbenud kohta. See ongi õige koht. Ise ma muidugi seda
proovinud pole, kuid proovida ju võib.
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OOOO, VW, Seat, Skoda DIAGNOSTIKA, OSTUABI (võimalik üle Eesti), kodeerimine, (de)aktiveerimine, aut. kastide õli, seadistused, DPF-i, õhkvedrustuse
mured jne. (Litsentsiga orig. Ross-Tech PRO V2 seade + uusim tarkvara VCDS 25.3.1 + 17a. kogemust). 2g, HN+, MHI2, MHI2Q uuendused, NAVI 2025, VIM,
SpeedCam, Carplay, Android Auto aktiv. jne. Läbitud kilomeetreid ei muuda. U2U või 55547002.
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Silverpm
huviline
Registreerunud 06.04.08
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Need vanemad ikka.
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postitati 02.09.11 15:18
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Lugesin selle kohta isegi välismaa foorumist, ilmselgelt peab selle ära proovima.
Teine küsimus veel.. nagu V8 mootoritel ikka vanadel V8-tel, on üks X pipe kohe ka alguses enne katte, sinna kuhu läheb lambda keskele
kas sinna on mõtekas panna otsetorud?
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mms
huviline
Registreerunud 13.10.02
Asukoht: Tallinn/Haapsalu
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: S6 V8T
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postitati 12.11.12 08:10
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Teema nüüd minu 2002 S6-l aktuaalne, iga kord kui originaali torusid vaatan, tuleb klomp kurku - peenikesed, erineva diameetriga (50-55) kõverad
käkerdised  . Kas keegi oskaks soovitada kohta, kus on riiulis 2,5"
keskmine reso (2 sisse 2 välja?) ja võimalikult suured aga "sportlikud" tagumised pütid, mis 2002 S6-le alla sobiksid? Kuna ostsin 2,5" hea
läbilaskevõimega katid, siis läheks leegitorudest lõpuni 2,5-ga. Tagumised lambdad sai prj abiga välja progetud, see lisab natuke vabadust. Eesmärgiks
on vabam aga mitte liiga lärmakas hingamine. Kui sobilikke pütte kellegi riiulis ei ole, on alternatiiviks muidugi keskmisest pütist loobumine nagu
Jann tegi, aga see tundub kuidagi poolik lahendus... Kuna kõike on ju kohe vaja, ei viitsi kuskilt usast rauda tellida.
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mms
huviline
Registreerunud 13.10.02
Asukoht: Tallinn/Haapsalu
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: S6 V8T
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postitati 14.11.12 15:36
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Minul asi sedapuhku lahendatud. Külge läksid 100 CPSI sportkatid CAT104R1 (Laki auto), jäi originaal X-pipe, keskmise püti asemel 2x peenikesed
universaalsed resod. Tagapütid jäid originaalid. Kuna tagumised lambdad sain prügikasti visata, sai sukast X-pipe'ni üsna ilusti otse tulla.
Detsibelle ei lisandunud, aga süsteem hingab paremini ja hääl tänu parematele kattidele ja sirgematele ühendustele kah parem. Seega - kui kõvemat
häält ja müdinat tahta, tuleb tagapüttide kallale minna.
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Creative
huviline
Registreerunud 16.02.05
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: S6- S4- S8
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postitati 10.02.13 17:05
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Tahaks enda C4 S6'l ka hingamist ja häält veidi paremaks teha. Mingi youtube S6 video all soovitati tagumine pütt alt ära võtta ja torud asemele
panna, pidi olema kõige lihtsam viis õige V hääl välja saada. On kellegil konkreetseid kogemusi? Muidugi võiks terve süsteemi jämedamale torule ja
teistele püttidele ümber ehitada aga enne suve ei viitsiks niipalju tegutseda. Kui kellegil mingeid häid soovitusi, et mida ja kus teha siis laske
tulla
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Silverpm
huviline
Registreerunud 06.04.08
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: Need vanemad ikka.
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postitati 10.02.13 17:34
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Tagapütti olen enda masinatel juba kahel ära võtnud, JAH tuleb V-ee hääl esile, rohkem teha polegi vaja kui häält soovid.
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Lauri_O
huviline
Registreerunud 04.02.09
Asukoht: Tartu
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: 2.5 TDI A4; 2x 2.8 A6 Q; Audi S8.
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postitati 10.02.13 17:49
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Ise oma kunagisel A8-sal põhjaalust moditud sai siis tegin peale katte täiesti otsetorud lõpuni välja, eest kuni taha välja ja kui linna sees ikka
kickdowni lõi siis just tuligi see õige V hääl masinal, minule sobis see tume jõmin. Mingit üüratut raha pole küll mõtet masina hääle peale matta,
arvan ise.
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madu
huviline
Registreerunud 31.07.07
Asukoht: Tallinn
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: A8 D4
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postitati 27.06.13 15:36
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Nagu mms kirjutas, siis see resodega mängimine on üsna hea. Sama asja olen oma autole ka teinud ja sellest piisab. Tagapüttide vahetusega saab küll
seda madalat kolinat, kuid enamused inimkõrvad väsivad sellisest häälest miski ajaga. Pealegi tekitab suuremate torude ja sportpüttide panek efekti,
kus hääl on aeglane matsumine nagu usa V8 mitte selline kiire madal jorin, nagu euroopas kõvemate käppade tuunitud autod. Aga kellele ema kellele
tütar...
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Creative
huviline
Registreerunud 16.02.05
Kasutaja on eemal
Auto: S6- S4- S8
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postitati 30.06.13 08:02
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Kas kattide eemaldamine mingit jõulisa ka annab?
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